1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Narrator: Yle talk on Tuesdays at one a clock Perttu Häkkinen. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:17,948 Häkkinen: And a very triumphant afternoon to you all and warm 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:23,000 welcomes to todays start of the day talk. I am Perttu Häkkinen. 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,645 Häkkinen: Today we will meet Jenna, a around 5 00:00:26,657 --> 00:00:30,151 twenty year old student and single parent, 6 00:00:30,163 --> 00:00:33,770 who loves her dog. She loves her dog so much 7 00:00:33,782 --> 00:00:37,000 that she even has intercourse with him. 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:43,346 Häkkinen: Animal love or animal cruelty? That is what we are pondering 9 00:00:43,358 --> 00:00:49,000 today, when we are discussing the aspects of Finnish zoophilia. 10 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,001 Häkkinen: On the subject matter in the studio with me is talking sexpo-foundations 11 00:00:54,013 --> 00:00:58,000 executive manager Tommi Paalanen. A very warm welcome to the show. 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,000 Paalanen: Hello, hello, and good to be here. 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,133 Häkkinen: Well, lets start with the basics. What kind of 14 00:01:05,145 --> 00:01:09,000 a person is a zoophile? How do you define a zoophile? 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,084 Paalanen: Well, actually that question what kind of a person 16 00:01:12,096 --> 00:01:15,039 he is can’t be given a good answer because there are many 17 00:01:15,051 --> 00:01:18,064 kinds of people who might have some form of sexual interest 18 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:21,000 towards animals and there we have the definition as well. 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,542 Paalanen: So, zoophilia is a preference to 20 00:01:23,554 --> 00:01:26,286 some kind of sexual interaction with animals, 21 00:01:26,298 --> 00:01:31,000 but it can appear for example as fantasies, so not everybody necessarily do it. 22 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,988 Häkkinen: So there can be this kind of latent 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,000 zoophilia or passive zoophilia or then active. 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,267 Paalanen: Yeah, often-used terms are such as 25 00:01:43,279 --> 00:01:49,000 this kind of all-encompassing or partial. 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,971 Paalanen: So if one has partial sexual preference it is so 27 00:01:50,983 --> 00:01:53,000 that they have also other manifestations of their sexuality. 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,488 Paalanen: So that it isn’t necessarily such an important part of ones sexuality, 29 00:01:56,500 --> 00:02:00,000 but it still is there, but when a person has a all-encompassing sexual preference 30 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,149 Paalanen: then it is often so that one can’t even properly 31 00:02:03,161 --> 00:02:06,000 get aroused unless this were present this preference. 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,963 Häkkinen: So in other words there are people 33 00:02:08,975 --> 00:02:11,554 who necessarily can’t get aroused from 34 00:02:11,566 --> 00:02:14,631 other people, instead their sexual orientation 35 00:02:14,643 --> 00:02:17,000 is so all-encompassingly zoophilic. 36 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,000 Paalanen: Yes, It is exactly like this. 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,488 Paalanen: This is of course a fairly rare group all in all. So that overall this kind 38 00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:29,000 of all-encompassing or exclusive fetishism in all its forms is a very rare phenomenon, 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,000 But yes they are in numerous ways among us. 40 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,158 Häkkinen: Well, ööm, Finland is one of the last, 41 00:02:38,170 --> 00:02:42,000 or actually lets continue a bit more on this. 42 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,021 Häkkinen: How large of a percentage of people are zoophiles? 43 00:02:46,033 --> 00:02:50,000 Has the subject matter been researched in Finland or abroad? 44 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,892 Paalanen: This has quite a scarcity of research and it scattered, but we are 45 00:02:54,904 --> 00:03:00,000 talking about a fraction of a percent when we are looking for the actual amount. 46 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,577 Paalanen: But considerably more people have sexual fantasies. In the imagery 47 00:03:04,589 --> 00:03:09,000 of sexual fantasies animal sex in its different forms is downright common. 48 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,690 Paalanen: So it can indeed be found by browsing say sex stories 49 00:03:12,702 --> 00:03:16,000 or peoples self told fantasies, so yes it always pops up. 50 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,097 Paalanen: And then we can take notice that in 51 00:03:19,109 --> 00:03:22,353 certain these kinds of agriculture driven, less 52 00:03:22,365 --> 00:03:25,771 industrialized societies there can be a quite high 53 00:03:25,783 --> 00:03:29,000 percentage of this for example among young men. 54 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,569 Paalanen: Even to as high as some fifty percent 55 00:03:31,581 --> 00:03:34,000 that have had sexual experience with animals. 56 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,165 Häkkinen: How about then has this been researched from the point of view 57 00:03:39,177 --> 00:03:44,000 of gender distribution? Is zoophilia more common among men or women? 58 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:50,000 Paalanen: It also varies a lot depending on the societal structures. 59 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,953 Paalanen: Typically in countryside areas, these kinds of less developed lands, young 60 00:03:55,965 --> 00:03:59,075 boys are the largest group that does it with 61 00:03:59,087 --> 00:04:02,000 farm animals as a form of substitute sex. 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,669 Paalanen: They don’t necessarily have a 63 00:04:03,681 --> 00:04:05,615 special preference rather it is at that phase 64 00:04:05,627 --> 00:04:09,000 when sexuality starts to develop and they are in the middle of a hormonal storm. 65 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,585 Paalanen: That which is nearby and available. And the relationship 66 00:04:11,597 --> 00:04:14,000 to the animals can be very close in these kinds of situations. 67 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,378 Paalanen: But then in urbanized societies it has been noted 68 00:04:18,390 --> 00:04:23,000 that young and a bit older women are those who do it with pets. 69 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,103 Paalanen: So it has been a more predominantly 70 00:04:25,115 --> 00:04:27,000 female phenomenon in urbanized societies. 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,076 Paalanen: And then nowadays as well it is some sort of a warm hearted 72 00:04:31,088 --> 00:04:35,000 relationship to the pet overall, so that is a very typical pattern. 73 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,526 Häkkinen: This is interesting. I would like to 74 00:04:38,538 --> 00:04:42,000 ask one more thing before we continue onwards. 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Häkkinen: So you mentioned popular cultures sexualized imagery. 76 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,752 Häkkinen: And for myself what comes to mind is a classic 77 00:04:49,764 --> 00:04:53,000 like “beauty and the beast”, “Kaunotar ja hirviö” 78 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,561 Häkkinen: Which perhaps however, “Beast” is a sort of predator 79 00:04:57,573 --> 00:05:02,000 or animal actually etymologically more than a monster/beast. 80 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:07,202 Paalanen: Yes, yeah here is flirtation with very interesting 81 00:05:07,214 --> 00:05:12,000 crossings when we are talking about even Disney’s films. 82 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,918 Paalanen: There is flirting with bestial love 83 00:05:14,930 --> 00:05:17,924 and with pretty strong powers that go with it, 84 00:05:17,936 --> 00:05:20,956 perceptions about this kind of primal power and 85 00:05:20,968 --> 00:05:24,000 some kind of sexuality that springs from there. 86 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000 Paalanen: And bestiality is always very strongly visible in certain type of humor. 87 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,773 Paalanen: You don't use that kind of humor or keep 88 00:05:30,785 --> 00:05:33,570 in your conversation, a matter that doesn't in any 89 00:05:33,582 --> 00:05:36,117 way fascinate or interest. So this two-fold or 90 00:05:36,129 --> 00:05:39,000 ambivalent relationship people have with this topic, 91 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,071 Paalanen: where it at the same time disgust many, 92 00:05:41,083 --> 00:05:43,000 but at the same time fascinates on some level. 93 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:51,205 Häkkinen: Yeah, and here is one such archetype where this 94 00:05:51,217 --> 00:06:00,000 Finnish rustic old boy with gumboots and sheep in the pasture, 95 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,736 Häkkinen: so this is very traditional archetype, there is in Finnish humor about 96 00:06:05,748 --> 00:06:11,000 these kinds of topics for example in Brother Half-moon series in the 80's. 97 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,626 Häkkinen: And today we test the validity of this archetype or stereotype as well, 98 00:06:16,638 --> 00:06:22,000 but one more question before we listen to the first part of Jenna's interview. 99 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,910 Häkkinen: Finland is one of the last European countries 100 00:06:24,922 --> 00:06:28,000 where the law doesn't prohibit sexual acts towards animals. 101 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,783 Häkkinen: At this moment of all the 102 00:06:29,795 --> 00:06:32,188 EU-countries, only Finland, Hungary and Romania 103 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,000 allow bestiality if it doesn't cause suffering, pain or agony to the animal. 104 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,296 Häkkinen: Elsewhere even the act is criminalized 105 00:06:40,308 --> 00:06:44,000 so why does our law differ in this regard? 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,638 Paalanen: Well the deal actually is, that we haven't had that 107 00:06:48,650 --> 00:06:53,000 kind of certain political pressure to further this matter. 108 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,460 Paalanen: In some countries like in the mainstream countries, 109 00:06:56,472 --> 00:07:00,000 Germany and Denmark there has been this kind of political panic 110 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,343 Paalanen: around this topic. Maybe because of a 111 00:07:02,355 --> 00:07:04,808 one-off case and then there have been circulating 112 00:07:04,820 --> 00:07:09,000 some whopping, but unverified arguments for example about animal brothels and others. 113 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,436 Paalanen: It has been this kind of so-called 114 00:07:11,448 --> 00:07:13,461 ad-hoc lawmaking, ergo the topic has 115 00:07:13,473 --> 00:07:18,000 popped out from somewhere and then they've had to do something with great distress. 116 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:24,000 Paalanen: Finnish law started off in the 70's on the topic that 117 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,852 Paalanen: zoophiles are rather in need of treatment than punishment, 118 00:07:27,864 --> 00:07:31,000 and so we started to examine this topic in a humane way. 119 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,823 Paalanen: Sure we have now arrived in sexual therapy to a 120 00:07:34,835 --> 00:07:39,000 conclusion that actually they aren't even in need of treatment. 121 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Paalanen: So there are no specific strong grounds on this kind of criminalization. 122 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,512 Paalanen: Except some kind of disgust and anxiety regarding this topic, 123 00:07:47,524 --> 00:07:51,000 but I don't think that it is a valid justification for criminalization. 124 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,757 Häkkinen: And about these justifications for criminalization and 125 00:07:55,769 --> 00:08:00,245 other similar topics we'll talk about later in this program. 126 00:08:00,257 --> 00:08:04,617 So, in the studio are Perttu Häkkinen and Sexpo-foundations 127 00:08:04,629 --> 00:08:09,000 executive manager, Tommi Paalanen. Now we go to meet Jenna. 128 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,338 Häkkinen: I have arrived here in Pirkanmaa to interview 129 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:17,000 a student-single parent at her twenties, Jenna. 130 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,671 Häkkinen: If we start at the basics, when did you notice that 131 00:08:22,683 --> 00:08:28,000 you are a zoophile, that is sexually attracted to animals? 132 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:34,265 Jenna: Well, this probably started sometime in the junior high when 133 00:08:34,277 --> 00:08:40,000 my own sexuality started to develop then I clearly noticed it, 134 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,988 Jenna: but maybe at that age I didn’t know how to process 135 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,000 the subject matter as well as nowadays. So there it began. 136 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,957 Häkkinen: Do you remember from your own childhood, how did you 137 00:08:51,969 --> 00:08:56,000 relate with animals or what feelings did animals stir up in you? 138 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,833 Jenna: Well I have always been very animal 139 00:08:58,845 --> 00:09:01,889 loving, like I remember from a very young age 140 00:09:01,901 --> 00:09:04,971 that I have always gone to pet and ask bravely 141 00:09:04,983 --> 00:09:08,000 from dog-owners if I can come pet their dogs. 142 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,188 Jenna: They have always brought great joy to me, the dog’s basic 143 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,000 nature, which is what it is, so happy tailwaggers and stuff, 144 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Jenna: so I have always related to them very fondly and vice versa. 145 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,128 Häkkinen: What do you think are the biggest misconceptions 146 00:09:27,140 --> 00:09:31,000 that are associated with zoophilia and it's practicers? 147 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,699 Jenna: Well, definitely that many people think it's only 148 00:09:35,711 --> 00:09:41,000 physical intercourse with animals and that nothing else happens. 149 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,407 Jenna: Because it is a lot deeper with a lot of emotions in it and 150 00:09:46,419 --> 00:09:52,000 definitely also that people think animals are being hurt in some way. 151 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:58,893 Jenna: That is never the zoophiles intention in any way. It is more like 152 00:09:58,905 --> 00:10:06,000 shared enjoyment and time spend together and that involves a lot of things 153 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:11,000 Jenna: but harming and anything negative is definitely not a part of it. 154 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Häkkinen: How you know if the animal enjoys it? 155 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:20,335 Jenna: Animals do have, dogs for example, have different levels 156 00:10:20,347 --> 00:10:26,000 of feelings and animas in general do have a sexual drive. 157 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,949 Jenna: Dogs also have this behavioral model that if the dog does not like a 158 00:10:31,961 --> 00:10:38,000 certain thing, it tries to avoid it, so yes animals can avoid if they want to 159 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,927 Jenna: so you can easily notice from the animal 160 00:10:39,939 --> 00:10:42,000 that nothing will happen if you start to force it. 161 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,711 Häkkinen: You indicated that the sexual intercourse, 162 00:10:46,723 --> 00:10:51,000 physical contact, is only one part of zoophilia, 163 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,687 Häkkinen: could you describe that these feelings you have towards, for 164 00:10:55,699 --> 00:11:00,000 example a dog or dogs that those feelings are by nature romantic? 165 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,000 Jenna: How, more specifically, you would define a romantic feeling? 166 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:30,393 Häkkinen: I just can't verbalize this better, but what I mean with my question 167 00:11:30,405 --> 00:11:36,000 is that you have had relationships with humans and also with animals, 168 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,696 Häkkinen: so have these relationships been similar to each other’s. 169 00:11:40,708 --> 00:11:45,000 Do they resemble each other these feelings that arise in you? 170 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,862 Jenna: Yes, there are similarities as well as 171 00:11:48,874 --> 00:11:53,000 feelings that cannot be compared with each other. 172 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,826 Jenna: Like for example with a dog I enjoy a lot of that kind of active 173 00:11:58,838 --> 00:12:05,000 interaction, doing something together, like if we are training or something, 174 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,759 Jenna: the connection you get with the dog, if for 175 00:12:07,771 --> 00:12:10,542 example the dog falls sick, and needs to go to the 176 00:12:10,554 --> 00:12:13,400 vet, it will get me really worried, in a similar way 177 00:12:13,412 --> 00:12:16,000 as I would worry for my own child’s well being. 178 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,000 Jenna: So the feelings are really profound. A dog is like a family member to me. 179 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,518 Jenna: Generally speaking for me any animal is like a member of the family, 180 00:12:25,530 --> 00:12:30,000 so I do all my best to take care of them and provide it the best way I can. 181 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,561 Häkkinen: Do you remember your first time with an animal, in a 182 00:12:34,573 --> 00:12:39,000 physical sense, and what it was like, what feelings it raised 183 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,938 Jenna: Yes, I remember. It was very exciting 184 00:12:42,950 --> 00:12:46,988 and I was definitely frightened too. It was a 185 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,814 bit hassle on both our parts. I could aptly 186 00:12:50,826 --> 00:12:55,000 compare it to my first time with another human, 187 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,499 Jenna: as in it was quite a similar combination of 188 00:12:58,511 --> 00:13:02,160 excitement and fear, like how and what we should do, 189 00:13:02,172 --> 00:13:05,574 but yes, it was very much well, really incredible 190 00:13:05,586 --> 00:13:09,000 and memorable anyway, so yes it stays on my mind. 191 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:15,000 Häkkinen: Have had these feelings of guilt or anything similar? 192 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:40,000 Häkkinen: Do you know other people who have similar feelings and desires? 193 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,024 Jenna: Yes I do know, some of them are total strangers, 194 00:13:42,036 --> 00:13:44,000 but some of them are very close acquaintances of mine. 195 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:51,117 Häkkinen: Do you have some kind of a community, 196 00:13:51,129 --> 00:13:59,000 virtual or a more of a classic communion related one? 197 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,662 Jenna: there is a lot of anonymously chatting and talking over the 198 00:14:03,674 --> 00:14:08,000 Internet. There are these Finnish and also foreign forum sites 199 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,926 Jenna: which can be found in the Internet, so anyone 200 00:14:10,938 --> 00:14:13,599 can find them easily. Then there are these more 201 00:14:13,611 --> 00:14:16,459 closed sites where you can access them only through 202 00:14:16,471 --> 00:14:19,000 knowing someone already a member of the site. 203 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,369 Häkkinen: In these sites are there users that you do not 204 00:14:22,381 --> 00:14:26,000 approve of, like for example people who want to hurt animals? 205 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,227 Jenna: Well, hurting animals does not belong to zoophilia. It is often 206 00:14:30,239 --> 00:14:34,000 mixed up with this nasty kind of sub category called zoosadism, 207 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,137 Jenna: where the main purpose is to actually 208 00:14:36,149 --> 00:14:38,012 hurt animals, and that is not the part 209 00:14:38,024 --> 00:14:42,000 of the zoophilia at all. I definitely do not tolerate those kinds of people at all. 210 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:50,264 Häkkinen: If you had to tell a total average Joe what zoophilia 211 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:57,000 is about in its entirety, how would you describe it? 212 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,958 Jenna: Deeply caring about the animal is probably 213 00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:03,000 the easiest way to at least start the conversation. 214 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,592 Jenna: That It is mainly emotion based and that the 215 00:15:06,604 --> 00:15:10,000 physical aspect is really a very small part of it 216 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,408 Jenna: And that some zoophiles don’t for 217 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:15,136 example practice this physical aspect at all. 218 00:15:15,148 --> 00:15:20,000 That for them it is only the feeling of togetherness with their pets that matters. 219 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,590 Häkkinen: But if we compare these feelings, these 220 00:15:23,602 --> 00:15:27,060 experiences - my closest point of comparison is 221 00:15:27,072 --> 00:15:30,774 a relationship to another person - so if we compare 222 00:15:30,786 --> 00:15:34,000 these and I'll try to understand in that way 223 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,988 Häkkinen: for example we humans have multiple 224 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,000 friends and partners - is it so for zoophiles? 225 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:52,453 Jenna: There are certainly lots of friends. It takes a lot more than just getting 226 00:15:52,465 --> 00:16:00,000 quickly acquainted or meeting a couple of times to forge a partnership... 227 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:09,000 Jenna: Personally I couldn't imagine physical contact with an unknown animal. 228 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:14,073 Jenna: It requires a certain kind of deeper connection, one 229 00:16:14,085 --> 00:16:19,000 where the animal trusts you and you know and trust it too. 230 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,647 Häkkinen: Have you been able to speak about this to your relatives and 231 00:16:24,659 --> 00:16:30,000 loved ones, to people who possibly don't know about your zoophilia. 232 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,887 Jenna: No, I haven't. It's such a tough topic; such a big taboo and many 233 00:16:34,899 --> 00:16:40,000 people won't ever be able to understand it, even if you tried to explain it. 234 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,780 Jenna: Many people immediately make up their minds and stick to some 235 00:16:44,792 --> 00:16:50,000 particular issue, for example physical contact and after that they won't... 236 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,432 Jenna: After they've made up their minds, I 237 00:16:52,444 --> 00:16:55,000 think it's useless trying to explain anything. 238 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,125 Häkkinen: That was Jenna, a twenty-something year old 239 00:17:00,137 --> 00:17:04,988 woman who I spoke to last week. When I started the 240 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,894 interview by asked about Jenna's motives - her name 241 00:17:09,906 --> 00:17:15,000 and voice have been altered, as you might've guessed. 242 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,699 Häkkinen: When I asked about her motives to agreeing to an 243 00:17:18,711 --> 00:17:22,988 interview, speaking about a topic, that's so heavy and hushed about 244 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,988 in society, why would she want to do it in the first place? She 245 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,000 said she wanted to, in a way, educate people about the subject. 246 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,553 Häkkinen: Here in the studio I, Perttu Häkkinen and 247 00:17:35,565 --> 00:17:39,691 the executive manager of the Sexpo-foundation, 248 00:17:39,703 --> 00:17:47,000 Tommi Paalanen are discussing zoophilia, that used to be referred to as bestiality. 249 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,920 Häkkinen: Well Tommi, since you work for the 250 00:17:50,932 --> 00:17:56,000 Sexpo-foundation, are you contacted by a lot of zoophiles? 251 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,130 Paalanen: We are contacted from time to time, though they aren't usually 252 00:18:00,142 --> 00:18:04,000 directed to me, but our counseling service gets contacted by people, 253 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,021 Paalanen: who either fantasize or who already 254 00:18:07,033 --> 00:18:10,000 have had sexual interaction with an animal... 255 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,914 Paalanen: Some are confused and are looking for a... 256 00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:18,000 person to talk to, for the same reason Jenna mentioned, 257 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,667 Paalanen: that there often aren't any people 258 00:18:20,679 --> 00:18:23,000 who you can open to about these things. 259 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:30,226 Paalanen: Also, there's a lot of worry about outside reactions and feelings 260 00:18:30,238 --> 00:18:37,000 of abnormality. These kinds of issues are what people contact us about. 261 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,465 Paalanen: Lately, because of this reformation of the 262 00:18:39,477 --> 00:18:42,000 Animal Protection Law, we've been contacted by some... 263 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,345 Paalanen: representatives of zoophiles, asking about what's 264 00:18:47,357 --> 00:18:52,000 going on and is there anything they can do about it. 265 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,605 Paalanen: They're afraid of becoming labeled as criminals due 266 00:18:55,617 --> 00:18:59,000 to the new law, which is obviously an understandable fear. 267 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:06,069 Häkkinen: At this point in the broadcast I must mention, that if you have any comments 268 00:19:06,081 --> 00:19:13,000 about the subject, or questions for Tommi, leave them in the shoutbox at yle.fi/puhe. 269 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,595 Häkkinen: So you could say, that these emotions 270 00:19:16,607 --> 00:19:20,063 that zoophiles feel about the amendment have, 271 00:19:20,075 --> 00:19:23,935 in a way - or, it's fair to say that the discussion 272 00:19:23,947 --> 00:19:27,000 has been heating up at your end as well? 273 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,000 You're being contacted more often after this information became public? 274 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,170 Paalanen: Yes, it's had some minor effect. There hasn't been a torrent 275 00:19:36,182 --> 00:19:41,000 of contacts due to the sensitive nature of the topic and people... 276 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,085 Paalanen: There aren't a ton of zoophiles in Finland. So in a positive way the 277 00:19:46,097 --> 00:19:51,000 amount of contacts hasn't been huge, but it's definitely something constant. 278 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,112 Paalanen: In our counseling service it's also visible outside 279 00:19:56,124 --> 00:20:01,000 the legislation issue as a need for counseling and support. 280 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Häkkinen: Then we will discuss about laws. 281 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:11,000 Häkkinen: You do not support this law amendment on that part. Why? 282 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Paalanen: My stance as an ethical sexologist is that 283 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:25,000 Paalanen: harming animals is strictly forbidden and should be, 284 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:33,000 Paalanen: but animal sex is such broad and varied topic that, 285 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,119 Paalanen: we cannot begin to inspect human-animal sexual 286 00:20:35,131 --> 00:20:36,999 relations solely from perspective of causing harm. 287 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,512 Paalanen: More of what we should tell apart is which 288 00:20:39,524 --> 00:20:42,000 relations and aspects are harmful and which are not, 289 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,927 Paalanen: and we can outlaw those harmful interactions for good 290 00:20:43,939 --> 00:20:46,000 reasons, and they are already outlawed with the current legislation, 291 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,000 Paalanen: So no reform is required on that part. 292 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,988 Paalanen: But then these sexual relations and 293 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,000 situations that are not harmful to the animal, 294 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:02,000 Paalanen: Where is the benefit from outlawing them, is there any? 295 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,139 Paalanen: Is it beneficial that a certain group's sexual 296 00:21:04,151 --> 00:21:05,999 preference is altogether outlawed in this manner? 297 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,033 Paalanen: What legal good are we protecting, 298 00:21:08,045 --> 00:21:10,000 what good for the society are we aiming at? 299 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Paalanen: Answers to these questions out there are more or less on flimsy premises. 300 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,597 Paalanen: That in favor of outlawing, outlawing 301 00:21:16,609 --> 00:21:19,000 altogether very poor arguments can be found. 302 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,488 Paalanen: One can reason here right now, should we 303 00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:26,000 really make a police affair out of Jenna's actions. 304 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,526 Paalanen: Put her in jail and in court or if we had a teen 305 00:21:30,538 --> 00:21:35,000 girl who wants to experiments along her sexual development 306 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:42,000 Paalanen: or is doing and playing something with her pet dog. 307 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,439 Paalanen: Is that a matter where the police 308 00:21:43,451 --> 00:21:45,000 should be brought into, raise charges in court. 309 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,000 Paalanen: Who stands to gain from that? 310 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,176 Paalanen: To satisfy people's anxiety and disgust, we shouldn't need 311 00:21:52,188 --> 00:21:57,000 legislation designed to undermine an already marginalized group. 312 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,488 Häkkinen: Yes and generally animals' rights and 313 00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:04,000 what is beneficial activity and what is harmful, 314 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Häkkinen: for example fur farming is a legitimate profession in this country. 315 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,000 Paalanen: A very good comparison. Factory farming overall, 316 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,000 Paalanen: When we go to dog shows, there's that sort of trimming 317 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,488 Paalanen: and honing and training that in no way can be 318 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:23,000 said to be beneficial in all cases to the dogs involved. 319 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,988 Paalanen: This is an area full of myths and imagination 320 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,000 that should be dealt with just calm analytical thinking. 321 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Häkkinen: Well, do you think this calm analytical thinking, taking the topic 322 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,515 Häkkinen: and its starkness into account in a 323 00:22:39,527 --> 00:22:42,000 certain manner - is possible in this society? 324 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,000 Paalanen: It looks like possible in this studio right this moment, and its good 325 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Paalanen: that we can be an example that one can have a discussion of any 326 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,157 Paalanen: phenomena happening in society, that 327 00:22:55,169 --> 00:22:58,000 you can have a calm, fact-based discussion 328 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,167 Paalanen: and really think from different perspectives about how this 329 00:23:02,179 --> 00:23:06,000 happens, who stands to gain and what sort of dynamic is at work. 330 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,000 Paalanen: In sexology this has been one of the long-term goals for many other things. 331 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,657 Paalanen: We could be talking here just in the same manner about 332 00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:19,000 any other sexual phenomena, when we go back by few decades, 333 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,872 Paalanen: how spirited discussion it was back then about, for 334 00:23:21,884 --> 00:23:25,000 example, can women go to the restaurant without escorts at evening. 335 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,517 Paalanen: There definitely were passionate opinions 336 00:23:26,529 --> 00:23:28,000 of the matter and we have come so far from it now. 337 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,988 Häkkinen: Before we pick up from could, should 338 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,000 women go alone to restaurants, let us listen to 339 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,000 Häkkinen: historian Teemu Keskisarja who was interviewed by Panu Hietaneva. 340 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,242 Häkkinen: Keskisarja has researched in his thesis about history 341 00:23:45,254 --> 00:23:48,000 of Finnish zoophilia and punishments given out for it. 342 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,000 Hietaneva: Zoophilia has probably happened throughout the history of humanity. 343 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,590 Hietaneva: Docent Teemu Keskisarja has researched the 344 00:23:55,602 --> 00:23:58,012 subject from a Finnish perspective in his thesis, 345 00:23:58,024 --> 00:24:00,500 which is titled 'On mixing with mindless creatures' 346 00:24:00,512 --> 00:24:03,000 (Secoituxesta järjettömäin luondocappalden canssa). 347 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,103 Hietaneva: Right at the beginning we must ask 348 00:24:05,115 --> 00:24:07,000 the historian about his personal motives: 349 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,238 Hietaneva: Why is zoophilia such interesting 350 00:24:09,250 --> 00:24:11,000 topic that it has to be researched? 351 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:17,000 Keskisarja: Because the history of zoophilia is just not a curiosity. 352 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,920 Keskisarja: Zoophiles in Finland have been persecuted far 353 00:24:20,932 --> 00:24:25,000 more worse and far longer than for example, witches or gays. 354 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,608 Keskisarja: Zoophile was a major 355 00:24:26,620 --> 00:24:29,000 politico-criminal problem in the 18th century. 356 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,103 Keskisarja: Hundreds and even thousands of our ancestors have been 357 00:24:34,115 --> 00:24:39,000 sentenced to at least cruel corporeal punishment, some to death. 358 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Hietaneva: In the old world, people used to make secular laws based on the Bible. 359 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Hietaneva: Can anything be found there that condemns zoophilia? 360 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,622 Keskisarja: Yes, there is. In the books of Moses, zoophilia is punishable 361 00:24:55,634 --> 00:25:02,000 by death in the same context and sequential verses as homosexuality is. 362 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,661 Hietaneva: Lets talk then a bit about your researches 363 00:25:04,673 --> 00:25:07,000 backgrounds. What kinds of sources did you use? 364 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,153 Keskisarja: Transcripts from trials. There are 365 00:25:10,165 --> 00:25:12,994 from the 1700s quite a few well-preserved 366 00:25:13,006 --> 00:25:18,000 ones already. In them are even detailed descriptions of bestiality crimes. 367 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,798 Keskisarja: The judges really couldn't, or the civil 368 00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:23,461 law notaries couldn't abide modesty. Instead they 369 00:25:23,473 --> 00:25:26,251 had to for the sake of provability note down all the 370 00:25:26,263 --> 00:25:29,000 smallest of details on paper of that grotesque act. 371 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,000 Hietaneva: How many cases do you know of? 372 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,952 Keskisarja: I had in my doctors thesis, if I remember 373 00:25:35,964 --> 00:25:39,562 correctly, only about three hundred court cases, 374 00:25:39,574 --> 00:25:43,202 so those were the more serious ones that had gone 375 00:25:43,214 --> 00:25:47,000 all the way to the supreme court of Turku or Vaasa. 376 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,124 Keskisarja: So even more cases could have been 377 00:25:49,136 --> 00:25:51,000 found for sure with fairly little effort. 378 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,227 Hietaneva: So from here you cannot directly draw conclusions 379 00:25:54,239 --> 00:25:57,000 on how common this bestiality has been in the 1700s? 380 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,488 Keskisarja: Not directly, but you can make conclusion indirectly. Trials 381 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:08,000 concerning bestiality were a lot more common than for example rape trials 382 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,539 Keskisarja: and approximately a hundred times more common than trials 383 00:26:11,551 --> 00:26:15,000 raised against homosexuals, which Finland didn't have nearly at all. 384 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,199 Keskisarja: So at least as a juridical phenomenon 385 00:26:19,211 --> 00:26:23,000 bestiality was very common in 1700's Finland. 386 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,000 Hietaneva: Were all of the convicted or accused men? 387 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,217 Keskisarja: In my doctoral thesis that had a few hundred 388 00:26:32,229 --> 00:26:37,000 example-cases all of them were male, except for one. 389 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,730 Keskisarja: A certain daughter from Lapua, named 390 00:26:41,742 --> 00:26:46,000 Maria, was accused of having sex with a dog. 391 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,757 Keskisarja: But that accusation as well was dropped in 392 00:26:48,769 --> 00:26:51,488 court and on the contrary Maria got compensation from 393 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:54,288 the people who had slandered her as a animal fucker. So 394 00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,000 bestiality is therefore distinctively a crime of men. 395 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,787 Hietaneva: In my doctoral theses it reads that as a 396 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:04,817 juridical and as a folk cultural phenomenon bestiality 397 00:27:04,829 --> 00:27:08,439 wounded the 1700s Swedish and Finnish people more 398 00:27:08,451 --> 00:27:12,000 than any other nationality. What does this mean? 399 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,145 Keskisarja: Probably that bestiality has appeared in all cultures 400 00:27:16,157 --> 00:27:20,000 from the stone ages to modern days in all parts of the world, 401 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,526 Keskisarja: but only in Sweden and Finland the 402 00:27:23,538 --> 00:27:27,000 juridical system was so damn interested in it. 403 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,544 Hietaneva: What is the reason behind it? Why was the juridical system 404 00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:30,000 around these parts of the world interested in the subject matter? 405 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,423 Keskisarja: That is a very difficult question. When legislators had 406 00:27:34,435 --> 00:27:39,000 already from the Middle Ages taken special notice on bestiality crimes 407 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,192 Keskisarja: and it had precise terms and definitions, when on the other 408 00:27:43,204 --> 00:27:47,000 hand homosexuals were not persecuted in Sweden or Finland at all. 409 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,572 Keskisarja: To put it bluntly continental Europe, 410 00:27:50,584 --> 00:27:54,024 Paris or London chased homosexuals in the 1700s 411 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:57,790 and Amsterdam as well, while in the Nordic countries 412 00:27:57,802 --> 00:28:01,000 bestiality was the focus of criminal policy. 413 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,606 Hietaneva: What do we know about zoophiles of 414 00:28:04,618 --> 00:28:08,000 that time? Is there some kind of archetype? 415 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,163 Keskisarja: We know quite a lot about them in fact, because in court 416 00:28:11,175 --> 00:28:14,488 they were interrogated on how old you are, what occupation do you have. 417 00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:17,509 Some questions were asked about one's childhood and on their life 418 00:28:17,521 --> 00:28:21,000 situations as well from the point of view of determining soundness of mind. 419 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,920 Keskisarja: There is actually no archetype of a zoophile; 420 00:28:24,932 --> 00:28:29,000 they were in my opinion pretty normal people, average Finns. 421 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,526 Keskisarja: So as representatives of the population, strangely in 422 00:28:31,538 --> 00:28:34,000 fact, minorities were not overly represented in this perversion. 423 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,618 Keskisarja: The typical Finnish zoophile was a youthful farmhand 424 00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:45,000 or shepherd boy who didn't have previous offenses to his name. 425 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,583 Keskisarja: But in the group there were as well men with 426 00:28:49,595 --> 00:28:54,028 families who had learned in their childhood a habit of 427 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,668 bestiality that had been left on. At a later more matured 428 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,000 age they were caught for the first time of the crime. 429 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,759 Hietaneva: In times of witch-hunts people were reported without proof and 430 00:29:06,771 --> 00:29:11,000 accusations were pulled out of thin air. Did similar things happen with bestiality? 431 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:19,000 Keskisarja: Sometime, but the burden of proof was very heavy in the 1700s. 432 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,194 Keskisarja: For a verdict on bestiality, at 433 00:29:21,206 --> 00:29:23,463 least for ones leading to the death sentence 434 00:29:23,475 --> 00:29:25,949 required two unchallengeable witnesses' testimony 435 00:29:25,961 --> 00:29:28,000 and preferably the accused's confession. 436 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,176 Keskisarja: And when bestiality of course was not readily publically 437 00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:38,000 practiced it was very difficult to gather the evidence together. 438 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,988 Keskisarja: And basically the informer took quite a 439 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,000 big risk, in that if the accusation is left unproven 440 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,633 Keskisarja: then he himself will get a severe punishment, even 441 00:29:47,645 --> 00:29:51,000 the same punishment that would have befallen the zoophile. 442 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,847 Keskisarja: There were some unfounded accusations, 443 00:29:53,859 --> 00:29:56,269 but probably a hundred times or a thousand 444 00:29:56,281 --> 00:29:58,767 times more were such cases where the witness 445 00:29:58,779 --> 00:30:01,000 didn't dare go talk to the authorities. 446 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,513 Hietaneva: Bestiality up to this day, is a taboo that is not commonly 447 00:30:04,525 --> 00:30:08,000 talked about but how it was responded during 1700's among the people? 448 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,000 Keskisarja: It was a terrible crime and a death sin, 449 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,000 Keskisarja: but not human dignity degrading. 450 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,956 Keskisarja: sexual perversion, when the entire 451 00:30:20,968 --> 00:30:24,000 word perversion was not been invented in 1700's. 452 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,029 Keskisarja: That taboo, it was not really a taboo 453 00:30:26,041 --> 00:30:28,000 because there was so much talk about bestiality. 454 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:33,000 Keskisarja: Legal courts were public as well as the bans by authorities. 455 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:39,000 Keskisarja: the “non taboo” nature of bestiality is told in the old folklore 456 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,488 Keskisarja: there are lots of poems about bestiality even 457 00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:46,000 though there aren't as many like that about homosexuality. 458 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,439 Keskisarja: Old folklore Kalevala's omitted poems 459 00:30:48,451 --> 00:30:51,000 that told about Väinämöinen's relation to bestiality 460 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,000 Keskisarja: that means the taboo has lived among us very long time. 461 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Radio channel: Perttu Häkkinen. 462 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,626 Hietaneva: What about the punishments then? Was death penalty the 463 00:31:01,638 --> 00:31:05,000 most common or were there less restrictive options available? 464 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:12,000 Keskisarja: In principle, the law in most cases ordered the death penalty 465 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,538 Keskisarja: but in Finland the penalty was relaxed from reason to 466 00:31:18,550 --> 00:31:25,000 another, for example to life sentence of work and 40 whip lashes. 467 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,569 Keskisarja: That was because maybe the magistrates thought that 468 00:31:27,581 --> 00:31:30,000 not all of them could be executed, there would be too many.. 469 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,743 Keskisarja: would be.. blood flowing, but you could die 470 00:31:34,755 --> 00:31:39,000 from it. ..all things swept... were incriminating. 471 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,830 Keskisarja: So most of the zoophiles remained 472 00:31:43,842 --> 00:31:49,000 closed before their 50th or 100th time in the act 473 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,786 Keskisarja: many years they practiced the sin more or less frequently 474 00:31:52,798 --> 00:31:56,000 and some point all the sudden some were caught by accident. 475 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:02,000 Keskisarja: That was.. ..their way was commonplace. 476 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,462 Keskisarja: Almost every other crime, including sex offenses were 477 00:32:05,474 --> 00:32:09,000 done while being inebriated but zoophiles were almost always sober. 478 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,064 Hietaneva: Was the sentenced convicted to pay to compensate for the acts to the 479 00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:17,000 animal owners and what happened to the animals that were being used sexually? 480 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,547 Keskisarja: I think that was probably the biggest injustice 481 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:24,000 about the bestiality trial cases, the fate of the animals. 482 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,321 Keskisarja: Animals received death penalty with the 483 00:32:28,333 --> 00:32:33,000 person or even in the case where the human was pardoned. 484 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,400 Keskisarja: the animals were slaughtered 485 00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:38,000 publically for being involved in bestiality. 486 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,000 Keskisarja: It was a sad case if a farmer retrospectively confessed for doing the sin 487 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,382 Keskisarja: for ten years with the whole village's cattle. In that case the 488 00:32:48,394 --> 00:32:54,000 executioner had to escort about 30 animals of different species to their graves 489 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,000 Keskisarja: and that lead the villagers to big financial losses. 490 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,637 Keskisarja: In principle the zoophile had to pay 491 00:33:01,649 --> 00:33:05,000 these losses for the owner from his own funds 492 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,488 Keskisarja: but the poor farmer hands or shepherds 493 00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,000 in most cases did not have anything to out measure. 494 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,608 Hietaneva: In your thesis you write that the prevalence of bestiality can be 495 00:33:14,620 --> 00:33:19,000 explained by sexual frustration, could you tell a little more about this? 496 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,788 Keskisarja: Of course it can be explained that marriage was 497 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:29,000 basically the only legal route to pursue a carnal intercourse and 498 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,000 Keskisarja: there was birth control but they were quite ineffective. 499 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,650 Keskisarja: And also farmer hands and maids had the risk of getting 500 00:33:37,662 --> 00:33:41,000 punished or at least shamed if they went in the barn together. 501 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,618 Keskisarja: And one very important thing that raised the popularity of 502 00:33:45,630 --> 00:33:50,000 bestiality was that masturbation, onanism was regarded in the 1700s 503 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Keskisarja: as a huge sin at least with the magistrates and the public alike. 504 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,594 Keskisarja: And these young men who always were involved did not 505 00:34:02,606 --> 00:34:07,000 necessarily have any safe and easy way to satisfy their needs. 506 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,825 Hietaneva: How then did the judiciary take on bestiality 507 00:34:10,837 --> 00:34:14,000 cases change during the next 1800 century then? 508 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,811 Keskisarja: First Monarch Gustav III ceased the death 509 00:34:17,823 --> 00:34:22,000 penalties during end of 1700 century from bestiality crimes 510 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,000 Keskisarja: and after that the sin and crime started to crawl in the darkness. 511 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,625 Keskisarja: That meant that the habits remained 512 00:34:29,637 --> 00:34:32,000 common but the trials became less frequent. 513 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,000 Keskisarja: and the authorities did not pay attention to bestiality cases anymore. 514 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,447 Keskisarja: That silent and hushing policy then little 515 00:34:42,459 --> 00:34:47,000 by little extinguished the interest among common people. 516 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,459 Hietaneva: Nowadays zoophilia is still legal in Finland but 517 00:34:50,471 --> 00:34:54,000 has anyone been convicted during 1900 century for it anymore? 518 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,526 Keskisarja: Yes. Actually, even after the past 519 00:34:57,538 --> 00:35:01,000 few wars, hundreds of zoophiles were sentenced 520 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,781 Keskisarja: And zoophilia wasn't legalized until 521 00:35:05,793 --> 00:35:10,000 the 1970s, concurrently with homosexuality. 522 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,070 Hietaneva: Let's ask your opinion as a historian: 523 00:35:14,082 --> 00:35:18,000 Should zoophilia be illegal in this day and age? 524 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,896 Keskisarja: Well, zoophilia absolutely sucks and is against the 525 00:35:21,908 --> 00:35:26,000 common sense of justice, so in that sense it should be criminalized 526 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,051 Keskisarja: however - even in the 18th century the authorities 527 00:35:31,063 --> 00:35:35,000 and courts noticed that severe public punishments 528 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,488 Keskisarja: didn't help in rooting out the sin, but on the 529 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,000 contrary only stirred up the interest of the common people. 530 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,634 Keskisarja: So maybe we too should avoid waking 531 00:35:43,646 --> 00:35:47,140 the slumbering beast and hope, that zoophilia 532 00:35:47,152 --> 00:35:50,526 stays in the darkest depths of the Internet, 533 00:35:50,538 --> 00:35:54,000 and doesn't find its way into our daily life. 534 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,354 Häkkinen: That was historian Teemu Keskisarja 535 00:35:57,366 --> 00:36:00,000 in an interview with Panu Hietaneva. 536 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,031 Häkkinen: Here in the studio now the executive 537 00:36:03,043 --> 00:36:06,150 manager of the Sexpo-foundation, Tommi Paalanen 538 00:36:06,162 --> 00:36:09,101 and I, Perttu Häkkinen will be discussing the 539 00:36:09,113 --> 00:36:12,000 faces and general view of Finnish zoophilia. 540 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,663 Häkkinen: How did all of this sound to you Tommi, or actually... 541 00:36:17,675 --> 00:36:23,000 while listening to Keskisarja's interview I started thinking, 542 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,267 Häkkinen: that are we Finns as a people simply 543 00:36:26,279 --> 00:36:29,000 just eager to "get in on" with animals, 544 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:36,120 Häkkinen: or is the reason for this high representation of zoophilia in the 18th 545 00:36:36,132 --> 00:36:43,000 century due to the fact, that the criminal policy was focused against the sin? 546 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,942 Paalanen: Well, the background of the matter is, that 547 00:36:47,954 --> 00:36:53,000 in the past, when it came to crimes of a sexual nature, 548 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,769 Paalanen: unnaturality was a grave sin in the Christian legal philosophy, 549 00:36:56,781 --> 00:37:00,000 and like Teemu mentioned of the severity of the sin of onanism, 550 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,443 Paalanen: zoophilia was comparably a worse crime than rape, since rape was a 551 00:37:03,455 --> 00:37:05,437 product of natural desire where as zoophilia 552 00:37:05,449 --> 00:37:07,000 was a product of unnatural desire, 553 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,066 Paalanen: so I don't know why the representation was 554 00:37:09,078 --> 00:37:11,000 so high - especially if Teemu doesn't know either 555 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,099 Paalanen: so the reason must be buried quite deep, but certainly such 556 00:37:14,111 --> 00:37:17,000 a hard stance on zoophilia in Scandinavia - in Finland and Sweden 557 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Paalanen: must have grown in part from the traditions of Middle Age Christianity. 558 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,012 Paalanen: So I think it's somewhat unreasonable to claim, that 559 00:37:27,024 --> 00:37:30,000 the presence of zoophilia was especially large in Scandinavia. 560 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,064 Paalanen: Or course, one factor could be, that 561 00:37:33,076 --> 00:37:36,021 in the Finnish countryside life was somewhat 562 00:37:36,033 --> 00:37:38,745 isolated sometimes due to long distances, 563 00:37:38,757 --> 00:37:42,000 difficult journeys... the long and cold winter... 564 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,108 Paalanen: people don't necessarily meet as many other people and 565 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,000 generally travel during winter, so isolation could've caused 566 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,000 Paalanen: people's sexual interests to drift more towards animals, 567 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,521 Paalanen: but the fact is bestiality is present in the history of all cultures that 568 00:37:56,533 --> 00:38:02,000 have kept animals, so in that sense us Fins aren't in any way especially perverted. 569 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,956 Häkkinen: Indeed, take for example in Japanese 570 00:38:04,968 --> 00:38:08,000 classical art, the famous painting "Tako to Ama" 571 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,888 Häkkinen: I can't remember if it was from the 18th or 19th 572 00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:20,000 century - that pictures a woman in the embrace of an octopus. 573 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,157 Häkkinen: In any case... is zoophilia - since 574 00:38:25,169 --> 00:38:30,000 we've discussed the side of criminal policy 575 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,328 Häkkinen: in your opinion, is zoophilia in general 576 00:38:34,340 --> 00:38:38,000 a question of ethics or an ethical problem? 577 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,135 Paalanen: Well it isn't per se, like when we ask about whether or not 578 00:38:43,147 --> 00:38:48,000 humans and animals are allowed have sexual contact with each other 579 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,806 Paalanen: the answers and analyses don't reveal 580 00:38:51,818 --> 00:38:55,000 anything of interest in terms of ethics. 581 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,513 Paalanen: The only question that can really be pondered ethically - in 582 00:38:58,525 --> 00:39:02,000 addition of injuring the animal, which is obviously an important issue 583 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,562 Paalanen: but the other than that, the question 584 00:39:05,574 --> 00:39:09,000 is whether or not the animal can give consent. 585 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,185 Paalanen: And there's two lines of thinking to that, which Jenna already 586 00:39:12,197 --> 00:39:15,000 brought up, that obviously the animal communicates and is active 587 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,488 Paalanen: for example a male dog in heat will mount stools 588 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:26,000 and stuffed animals and if you offer yourself to be mounted 589 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,820 Paalanen: it really can't be argued that the animal is in any way being 590 00:39:30,832 --> 00:39:36,000 forced to the act, so in these kinds of cases you could say there is consent. 591 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,388 Paalanen: But on the other hand, when dealing 592 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,436 with the ethics of handling animals in 593 00:39:40,448 --> 00:39:42,557 general, instead of consent it's usually 594 00:39:42,569 --> 00:39:45,000 viewed from the point of goodwill, benevolence 595 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:50,230 Paalanen: because most pets aren't able to give consent at all or even 596 00:39:50,242 --> 00:39:56,000 understand the concept of it, so that makes the matter of consent meaningless. 597 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:55,988 Paalanen: Even in animal rights philosophy it's the responsibility of the human to 598 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:56,000 respect the rights of the animal, which originating from the goodwill of humans. 599 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,899 Paalanen: Even in animal rights philosophy it's the responsibility of the human to 600 00:40:00,911 --> 00:40:03,239 respect the rights of the animal, which 601 00:40:03,251 --> 00:40:06,000 originates from our basic good willing nature. 602 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,940 Paalanen: Philosopher Peter Singer started his work from the 603 00:40:08,952 --> 00:40:12,000 idea, that causing unnecessary suffering to an animal is wrong, 604 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:17,106 Paalanen: which is also based on the idea of benevolence, 605 00:40:17,118 --> 00:40:21,000 not on what the animal wants or consents to. 606 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,778 Häkkinen: Indeed, Singer was the arch philosopher 607 00:40:23,803 --> 00:40:26,000 of a new kind of animal rights movement. 608 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,000 Paalanen: Yes. 609 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:32,226 Häkkinen: I was just thinking, that is there a general opinion towards zoophilia 610 00:40:32,251 --> 00:40:37,000 in animal rights philosophy or has there been any discussion on the topic? 611 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,031 Paalanen: Well, it hasn't really been addressed, because classic 612 00:40:41,056 --> 00:40:45,000 philosophers have often shied away from topics of sexual nature. 613 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,567 Paalanen: If I remember correctly, Singer had something to say on the topic, as 614 00:40:48,592 --> 00:40:52,000 well as Igor Primoratz and Alan Sobel, both of whom have discussed the topic. 615 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,951 Paalanen: A couple of people have been bringing up the issue and in general you 616 00:40:55,976 --> 00:41:00,000 could say, that because of this philosophy of suffering we've identified the fact, 617 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,000 Paalanen: that a sexual relationship isn't in itself in any way meaningful. 618 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,964 Paalanen: What is ethically interesting is the repercussions of the 619 00:41:09,989 --> 00:41:15,000 sexual relationship, the possible harm or maltreatment of the animal. 620 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,370 Paalanen: By contrast, anal sex or 621 00:41:16,382 --> 00:41:18,158 homosexuality by themselves aren't ethically 622 00:41:18,183 --> 00:41:20,999 interesting questions, but rather whether the act was consensual or not. 623 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,000 Paalanen: We should apply the same logic to animals as 624 00:41:27,025 --> 00:41:33,000 well, and ask whether an act is rape or consensual sex. 625 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,114 Häkkinen: Jenna did indeed mention this kind 626 00:41:38,139 --> 00:41:42,999 of an opposite of a zoophile, a zoo-sadist, 627 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:52,999 Häkkinen: which refers to a person, who seeks pleasure in hurting animals sexually. 628 00:41:53,000 --> 00:42:02,038 Häkkinen: So, is this a real subculture of bestiality? Do these kinds of activities 629 00:42:02,063 --> 00:42:10,000 actually take place or is it just a myth like the snuff-movies of the 70s? 630 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,636 Paalanen: Zoo-sadism, deliberately hurting animals, is - like Teemu 631 00:42:14,661 --> 00:42:19,000 Keskisarja put it - a part of the deepest abyss of the Internet. 632 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,283 Paalanen: And I don't mean bestiality in general, which 633 00:42:24,308 --> 00:42:29,000 is surprisingly mainstream and quite easy to find. 634 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,729 Paalanen: I wouldn't say that there is any uniform subculture 635 00:42:33,754 --> 00:42:38,000 or zoo-sadism outside some very specific Internet forums 636 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,276 Paalanen: where the subject is discussed. It's more about isolated 637 00:42:43,301 --> 00:42:48,000 individuals with woefully deranged relationships to animals, 638 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,000 Paalanen: who exploit animals' lack of defense and ability to express themselves. 639 00:42:53,000 --> 00:43:00,117 Paalanen: The reason why zoo-sadism is always so strongly on 640 00:43:00,142 --> 00:43:07,000 display when animal rights activists and vets are concerned 641 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,482 Paalanen: is because zoo-sadism is, unfortunately, perhaps the only 642 00:43:09,507 --> 00:43:11,999 side of bestiality that comes up when animals have clearly been hurt. 643 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,813 Paalanen: The damages of it are easily visible and verified, 644 00:43:15,838 --> 00:43:19,000 although you can't always be sure of the specifics. 645 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,779 Paalanen: For example, if the animal's genital area has tears or 646 00:43:23,804 --> 00:43:29,000 something similar, it's most likely due to violent sexual acts or such. 647 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,718 Paalanen: This type of misrepresentation is common in many other 648 00:43:33,743 --> 00:43:38,000 sexual topics, having these sorts of unpleasant byproducts, 649 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:46,000 Paalanen: however rare - come up and greatly affect the whole discussion. 650 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,480 Häkkinen: This was Perttu Häkkinen and the executive 651 00:43:49,505 --> 00:43:52,369 manager of the Sexpo-foundation here in the 652 00:43:52,394 --> 00:43:55,697 studio. At this point we will listen to the second 653 00:43:55,722 --> 00:43:59,000 part of the interview with twenty-something Jenna. 654 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:08,000 Häkkinen: Could you imagine living without zoophilia or that side of yourself? 655 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,351 Jenna: I could offer a counter question to everyone actually. 656 00:44:12,376 --> 00:44:16,000 Could you imagine that you were not straight or gay? 657 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,182 Jenna: For example it probably could work but 658 00:44:20,207 --> 00:44:24,000 how true life would be for you afterwards? 659 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,043 Jenna: It is a part of you; based on research zoophilia is 660 00:44:29,068 --> 00:44:34,000 a character trait and it is a attribute you are born with. 661 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:39,000 Jenna: So it is not just a think that comes from somewhere over there, out of nothing. 662 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:44,000 Häkkinen: Our society is based very much on the abuse of animals. 663 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,852 Häkkinen: We kill animals for food, we make clothing out of animals. 664 00:44:48,877 --> 00:44:53,000 These things are comparatively normal but zoophilia is not. 665 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,350 Häkkinen: How do you see other animal rights questions? 666 00:44:57,375 --> 00:45:01,000 Are you a vegetarian, do you use leather shoes? 667 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,534 Jenna: I'm not a vegetarian, but I am for example a 668 00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:08,000 member of different animal protection associations. 669 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:20,000 Jenna: I work as a volunteer and I strive to do what ever I can for animals. 670 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,259 Jenna: This amendment that's being pushed, banning zoophilia 671 00:45:25,284 --> 00:45:30,000 in Finland - I think it's a pretty absurd and dumb law. 672 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,000 Jenna: How would it be monitored? How could it be stopped? 673 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,491 Jenna: Starting from the fact, that nobody can 674 00:45:37,516 --> 00:45:40,686 ever know for sure what happens within the 675 00:45:40,711 --> 00:45:47,000 walls of someone else's apartment - surely a lot of things happen in everyone's homes 676 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,764 Jenna: this is certainly one of the things the amendment 677 00:45:50,789 --> 00:45:54,000 won't affect in any way, and I think this is a... 678 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,552 Jenna: A kind of attempt by politicians to be like 679 00:45:57,577 --> 00:46:00,965 "now let's do something good for animals so that 680 00:46:00,990 --> 00:46:04,426 animal lovers and everyone else is satisfied with 681 00:46:04,451 --> 00:46:08,000 the issue", when in fact they should be focusing on 682 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,399 Jenna: a lot, lot, lot more severe and significant issues that are 683 00:46:11,424 --> 00:46:15,000 happening to animals, like for example, intensive livestock production. 684 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,224 Jenna: Intensive livestock production is something that should really 685 00:46:20,249 --> 00:46:25,000 be intervened with as well as, if for example someone decides to 686 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,120 Jenna: neglect all of their 50 cows, which are then 687 00:46:28,145 --> 00:46:31,000 found dead in the barn and the person gets fined 688 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,626 Jenna: these are issues that should be interfered with 689 00:46:35,651 --> 00:46:40,000 more harshly, rather than zoophilia, that doesn't... 690 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,484 Jenna: There are no victims in this. It feels like the 691 00:46:43,509 --> 00:46:47,158 goal here is to just forcefully do something, so that you 692 00:46:47,183 --> 00:46:50,623 can pat your belly afterwards and say: "we sure made a 693 00:46:50,648 --> 00:46:54,000 great amendment, didn't we", when in fact it's not... 694 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,000 Jenna: It's not going to affect anything and there are no victims in it. 695 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,770 Häkkinen: In these virtual communities you have, has 696 00:47:02,795 --> 00:47:07,000 there been talk about uniting Finnish zoophiles 697 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:11,074 Häkkinen: to some official extent and start advocating 698 00:47:11,099 --> 00:47:15,000 for your own rights in case this amendment is passed? 699 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,000 Jenna: I don't know. I can honestly say that I don't know about that. 700 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,000 Jenna: There hasn't been that much discussion on this topic yet. 701 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:29,838 Häkkinen: When you've talked to other Finnish zoophiles on forums, has the other 702 00:47:29,863 --> 00:47:36,000 party been mostly men or women or has the ratio been 50-50 (fifty-fifty)? 703 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,000 Jenna: It's been pretty much 50-50 (fifty-fifty), it hasn't... 704 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,000 Jenna: Based on the picture I have, it's pretty much 50-50 (fifty-fifty). 705 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,042 Häkkinen: Is there some kind of loyalty towards 706 00:47:49,067 --> 00:47:53,000 certain species amongst zoophiles, in the sense 707 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,649 Häkkinen: that some people are attracted to dogs 708 00:47:56,674 --> 00:48:00,000 for example and others to some other species? 709 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,786 Jenna: Yes. It very much depends on the individual what 710 00:48:04,811 --> 00:48:10,000 animal they prefer and personally I'm only attracted to dogs. 711 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:16,000 Häkkinen: What other species or animals have been mentioned in these discussions? 712 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,000 Jenna: Horses, for example. 713 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,000 Häkkinen: Are these the two most common ones? 714 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,000 Jenna: I believe so. 715 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,649 Häkkinen: Is it then so, that if someone prefers 716 00:48:26,674 --> 00:48:30,000 horses or dogs, that identity doesn’t change? 717 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,000 Jenna: I'd say that it could change. 718 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,000 Jenna: Can't say for sure about myself. 719 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:44,000 Jenna: For example, I don't see horses in a sexual manner the same way I see dogs. 720 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:52,000 Jenna: It's probably is due to the fact, that I can understand dogs the best. 721 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,203 Jenna: I'd argue I know when a dog doesn't like something and during my life 722 00:48:57,228 --> 00:49:02,000 I've also spent the most time with dogs, so it's also the safest thing. 723 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,488 Häkkinen: In a dog, what kind of characteristics 724 00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:08,000 and physical traits appeal to you? 725 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:14,298 Jenna: Well, definitely the base characteristics of a dog, like happiness 726 00:49:14,323 --> 00:49:20,000 and positivity, like for example when you go meet your friends dogs 727 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:26,000 Jenna: they meet you at the door happily wagging their tail, so... 728 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:32,000 Jenna: There really isn't anything specific, so... 729 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,000 Häkkinen: Sociality then? 730 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,000 Jenna: Definitely sociality. 731 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:42,000 Jenna: The dog has to be a dog and it can't be... 732 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:47,000 Jenna: For example, if I'm considering physical intercourse 733 00:49:47,025 --> 00:49:51,000 with a dog, then dog can't be bashful or scared. 734 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,905 Häkkinen: Jenna, in your opinion, is zoophilia 735 00:49:54,917 --> 00:49:58,000 a moral question or a moral problem? 736 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:04,842 Jenna: Moral is definitely strongly tied to it, but I don't 737 00:50:04,867 --> 00:50:11,000 see anything morally wrong in it - I was born this way 738 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,293 Jenna: it's a trait I have and I'm my opinion 739 00:50:14,305 --> 00:50:17,323 you shouldn't moralize or punish yourself 740 00:50:17,348 --> 00:50:23,000 about who you are, especially when nobody is getting hurt, like with zoophilia. 741 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,000 Häkkinen: So in your opinion there is no victim. 742 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:35,000 Jenna: Absolutely not. It is about intense caring, intimacy, and affection. 743 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:45,000 Jenna: Yes, also the physical side, but hurting anyone involved is not part of it. 744 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:52,000 Häkkinen: You are a zoophile and a mother. Is this inconvenient situation? 745 00:50:52,000 --> 00:51:00,167 Jenna: Definitely in some way. As a family we're 746 00:51:00,192 --> 00:51:08,000 always with the dog just like any other family, 747 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,418 Jenna: we're no different in any way as far as that's 748 00:51:12,443 --> 00:51:17,000 concerned. But, if I want physical contact with the dog, 749 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:25,000 it will take place so that my child is not aware. 750 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:32,681 Häkkinen: People are said to be "serially monogamous", i.e. they fall in love and at 751 00:51:32,706 --> 00:51:40,000 some point the feelings may fade away and then they find a next partner or lover. 752 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,099 Häkkinen: Does this apply among zoophiles as well? Is it possible to fall in 753 00:51:45,124 --> 00:51:50,000 love with a dog and at some point to realize that the feelings have faded? 754 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:56,169 Jenna: I would say that at least infatuation is possible. I can't really 755 00:51:56,194 --> 00:52:02,000 say whether feelings fade away or not, because it's a personal trait, 756 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:09,135 Jenna: but it's possible in theory at least. You could feel attraction towards 757 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:16,000 a certain animal, only to later realize that it wasn't your thing after all. 758 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,205 Häkkinen: Some people from our audience may be 759 00:52:19,230 --> 00:52:22,205 speculating, that are you teaching physical 760 00:52:22,230 --> 00:52:27,999 interaction or aim to condition your dog to be, as it were, some sort of sex servant? 761 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:33,722 Jenna: Certainly not. That's not part of being a zoophile 762 00:52:33,747 --> 00:52:38,951 at all. The initiative comes from both the human and 763 00:52:38,976 --> 00:52:44,635 animal. I would say that it is clearly obvious if the dog 764 00:52:44,659 --> 00:52:50,000 has interest in you, and it will surely make it clear. 765 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:57,451 Häkkinen: Well lets think about some very eager and kind-hearted dog owner. 766 00:52:57,476 --> 00:53:05,000 Like a canine-fancier actively taking a part in pet fairs or Facebook-groups. 767 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:09,874 Häkkinen: Do any of these "ordinary dog enthusiasts" ever 768 00:53:09,899 --> 00:53:15,000 come off to you as someone that might actually be a zoophile? 769 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,520 Jenna: Well, sometimes they do, but I wouldn't 770 00:53:18,532 --> 00:53:21,613 necessarily claim that they actually are 771 00:53:21,638 --> 00:53:28,000 zoophiles. This is only my own assumption, but many people probably don't understand, 772 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,100 Jenna: that if they're experiencing such strong emotions, that sometimes just the 773 00:53:32,125 --> 00:53:36,000 feeling of love and affection you feel for your dog is enough to make you cry, 774 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:46,000 Jenna: that they are experiencing exactly the same feelings I have for my dog. 775 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:52,029 Häkkinen: That was the portrait of the Finnish zoophile, 776 00:53:52,054 --> 00:53:57,000 as told by the twenty-something year old Jenna. 777 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:02,809 Häkkinen: So, are zoophilic tendencies genetic 778 00:54:02,834 --> 00:54:08,000 as Jenna put it, or are they a perversion? 779 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:13,099 Paalanen: First off, these days perversion is a word that that's only really 780 00:54:13,124 --> 00:54:18,000 used by zealous Christians or people otherwise clueless about the subject, 781 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:23,000 Paalanen: so rather than genetic, I'd call it innate sexual traits. 782 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:30,179 Paalanen: The prevailing theory on how different sexual preferences develop, is 783 00:54:30,204 --> 00:54:37,000 that humans might be genetically inclined to develop strong sexual fetishes. 784 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:43,042 Paalanen: In any case, these fetishes are formed during early childhood 785 00:54:43,067 --> 00:54:49,000 for various reason and can't be altered whether they're genetic or not. 786 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,341 Häkkinen: What events can trigger these changes? 787 00:54:52,366 --> 00:54:55,000 Have there been studies on the subject? 788 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,500 Paalanen: There isn't a prevailing theory on the subject yet, as 789 00:54:59,525 --> 00:55:04,000 there hasn't been any "this is how it goes" kind of breakthrough. 790 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:10,203 Paalanen: So far one of the dominant theories is imprinting, that 791 00:55:10,228 --> 00:55:16,688 certain pleasurable experiences during early childhood start linking 792 00:55:16,713 --> 00:55:22,857 that pleasure to sexual satisfaction as well. It's a very, should 793 00:55:22,881 --> 00:55:29,000 I say, Freudian theory, but it's the strongest we currently have. 794 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,770 Häkkinen: Meaning that there are some grounds to the 795 00:55:33,795 --> 00:55:38,000 claim that it's triggered by a childhood event. 796 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,029 Paalanen: Yes, you could say that. Specifically when 797 00:55:41,054 --> 00:55:44,000 talking about very exclusive and strong preferences, 798 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,800 Paalanen: as people can have very diverse sexual 799 00:55:46,825 --> 00:55:50,000 repertoires when it comes to overall sexual preferences. 800 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:55,070 Paalanen: There can be a degree of pansexuality, experiencing sexuality 801 00:55:55,095 --> 00:56:00,000 in a plethora of things and zoophilia can be a part of bigger picture. 802 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,500 Häkkinen: Indeed. There are people who identify 803 00:56:04,525 --> 00:56:09,000 as object sexuals, if that was the correct term. 804 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:14,680 Häkkinen: One more question that comes to mind, is all zoophilia the same? For 805 00:56:14,705 --> 00:56:20,000 example, zoophilia has often been thought of, in a way, as substitute sex. 806 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,296 Paalanen: That is correct, but for example Jenna strongly 807 00:56:24,321 --> 00:56:28,000 represents what is called "zoo-romantic" thinking. 808 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,433 Paalanen: What that means is that her relationship 809 00:56:31,458 --> 00:56:35,000 with her animal could be classified as a love affair, 810 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,933 Paalanen: ... Regardless, traditionally zoophilia 811 00:56:38,958 --> 00:56:42,000 is about sexual attraction and arousal. 812 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,136 Paalanen: Based on my experiences zoo-romance 813 00:56:45,161 --> 00:56:48,136 is quite common, but there are also lots of 814 00:56:48,161 --> 00:56:54,000 zoophiles, that aren't after romance, but rather are only sexually aroused by animals. 815 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,899 Paalanen: And then perhaps the most common 816 00:56:56,924 --> 00:56:59,999 form of zoophilia is so called substitute sex. 817 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:05,500 Paalanen: By which I mean people having sex with 818 00:57:05,525 --> 00:57:11,000 animals when no other alternatives are available. 819 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:18,495 Häkkinen: Then should there be a clearer distinction 820 00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:25,000 between bestiality, zoophilia and zoo romance? 821 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,476 Paalanen: If you want to understand the phenomenon, which is essential 822 00:57:28,501 --> 00:57:31,999 in sexology, you must obviously understand, that it's not all the same. 823 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,180 Paalanen: It would be tacky to generalize people’s 824 00:57:36,205 --> 00:57:39,705 relationships like that, like there wasn't 825 00:57:39,730 --> 00:57:43,527 any difference between a lifelong marriage and 826 00:57:43,552 --> 00:57:47,000 prostitution. That's not how it is at all. 827 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,000 Häkkinen: Tommi Paalanen, thank you for visiting. 828 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:56,142 Paalanen: Thank you.